Re: [UUPoly-L] Re: UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 17, Issue 24

[diane schluter <dyionisiac@yahoo.com>]

Let me add to this discussion...
  
  There is a subset of BDSM prcatice called Gorean, from a very bad set  of si-fi novels.  In this community all men are dominante and all  women are submissive.  and women at all the is not submissive is  considered to have something wrong with her.  Men are encouraged  to have many women attached to them, but women can only go to a  differnt man when being "loaned out."
  
  Gorean practices are also very formal and obviously there are women who  are involved in them, or it would just be a buch of guys  daydreaming.  But I fidnd the entier set up deeply disturbing  because it is not set up along choice lines but is gender  perscriptive.  
  
  There is a differance between "I am femal and a sub, I am also stright  therefor I am looking for a male dom" and "I am fmale and therefore  need to be a sub to a male dom"  The one attitude strikes me as  perfectly healthy, the other seems to need more examination.
  
  Diana

kit of the furry heads <rawk.yer.socks.off@gmail.com> wrote:  Stanley Forrester wrote:

O.K.  Let me phrase it differently.  If I were to demand that someone
> critically examine anything, how is that different from my issuing
> an order to that same individual, "Woman get me coffee?"  How it is
> that one is offensive and the other not?  Perhaps for you personal is
> political.  That may not be true of someone else.  The interviews I have
> heard are with VERY ARTICULATE people who know exactly what they want.
> While I don't understand exactly what they get out of the experience I do
> understand that there is something very personal and intimate there.
> (Please note the selection bias, anyone who can handle podcasting, audio
> and webcasting software and who are comfortable speaking on the subject
> are quite possibly not a representative sample of the whole population)
> As a male I've learned the hard way not every one wants to be saved in
> accordance with my personal notions of what is best.


I don't see how someone being comfortable with their sexuality erases that
their sexual desires are to some extent culturally defined and how they act
on their sexual desires does influence society at large. And I don't think
that practicing BDSM affects society negatively at all. I don't think that
submissives don't necessarily have good anti-sexist and anti-racist
consciousnesses or that BDSM perpetuates sexism, and it seems like you seem
to think that I do. I think BDSM can be a feminist practice. It depends on
how it's done (and that doesn't mean what sex acts but things like consent,
desire, etc...)

> I don't think it is an either-or proposition. I don't think women
> > maintaining a critical consciousness while taking a submissive role
> > keeps
> > women (or men) from being free to be submissive? Rather, I think it is
> > being self-aware. The question really isn't, "Should I not be submissive
> > because I grew up in a sexist society that coerces women into be
> > submissive?" but rather "Do I desire being submissive? Is this in my
> > best
> > interests? How has culture and my upbringing influenced these choices?
> > How
> > does that affect me in making this choice?" and if the woman chooses a
> > male partner, "Why is he interested in being a Dom? Does he respect my
> > boundaries? Does he value consent? What is his relationship with women
> > and
> > femininity? Is he committed to anti-sexism?" Stuff like that.
>
> I can't speak to the male Dom motivation.  (Any male Doms out there
> care to add your two cents?)  There are fewer interviews with Doms than
> with submissives and proportionally fewer interviews with males than
> females.
> Two strikes which combined leave me with very little to go on.  What I
> have gotten out of this is the emphasis on communication and informed
> consent.


Males wish to be a Dom for different reasons. I am not bashing men for being
Doms but rather some men are Doms for fucked up sexist reasons and I feel
like playing with them is problematic because it reinforces their sexist
ideology. I think some men it is more of a result of sexual preference and
in no way reflects misogyny. It depends on the person and that is why I feel
the individual submissive needs to evaluate the individuals s/he is playing
with.
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