Re: [UUPoly-L] UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 29, Issue 17

["Miriam S Pia" <Miriam_S_Pia@hotmail.com>]

Today's Topics:

   1. Story and a question (blanketz)
   2. [RE] Story and a question (Desmond Ravenstone)
   3. Re: Story and a question (Laura Stewart)
   4. Re: Story and a question (blanketz)
   5. Re: Story and a question (Cynthia Armistead)
   6. Re: Story and a question (David Hall)
   7. Re: Story and a question (K Morgan-Davie)


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Dear List Participants,

Thanks everyone for sharing at these levels.

This has me to a point of sharing info. on this list again.

Dear BB, you are not alone.  During the past two years I have met several
people who either came out of their sexual orientation closet having
attempted to practice heterosexuality for some time.

I currently have someone who I believe to be an important friend who shall
remain nameless for the sake of confidentiality who alluded to having been
stuck in the closet apparently for decades...I'm going on the basis that
this was truth, rather than effort to reject me sexually without offending
me...this individual has dwelled predominantly in a quasi or entirely
celibate state for an unknown period of time.

Recently I met another woman, who is, like BB just coming out of 15 years
married to a homosexual man who is leaving marriage for that reason, but his
former wife is "like the only one who he has even admitted to being gay to"
"Like OmiGod!"  and "Good grief, Charlie Brown."

During the past two years I also met both people who found out that their
spouse had decided to flip the sexual orientation practice coin after a
lengthy relationship as well as some people who had finally managed to get
out of the closet and had moved into living 'more fully as themselves'.  

In addition to this, I also know of a couple in which the woman has been
frustrated and wanting to have a lover because her husband is apparently all
about having a celibate marriage: he had spent many years as apparently a
celibate third in a triad for years before moving into his current marriage.
I advised her to at least attempt to communicate with the man in an effort
to find some mutually agreed upon solution.

My own issues are far more along the fidelity, and monogyny &/or monogamy:
but only in the serialized sense since I'm long past the one lover only for
life option, which I didn't even want anyways.

My last effort at marriage had a built-in MONSTER of abuse, which was
partially resolved within the relationship but has unfortunately left some
psychological 'marks'.  Despite that there was a lot else in the
relationship that was genuinely great, including that it was a mutually
agreed upon Open Marriage.

A few weeks ago or something we had Keith write in suffering from being
abandoned in a poly relationship...well, in my case it is difficult to be
clear on whether it was really all the other nastiness that led to the end,
but it is in fact also true that when I had a meeting with another romantic
partner the spouse was 100% informed and supportive.  However, when he
checked into it, he tended to be quite secretive about it...and in the end,
the first woman who he 'went elsewhere with' is now married to him.  So, I
can relate in this case, and in the case of my second spouse who I kept not
leaving [this chap hates polyamory, and has remarried to a woman who grew up
with a 2F1M triad for a good ten years or so of her life, but engaged
together with my second spouse to 'get me to finally leave my second
husband, with whom I lived for years after legal divorce- that was probably
a mistake in itself, but it involves related issues].  Anyway, some empathy
there.

Personally, I have chosen to inspect and reflect upon my fortunately growing
awareness of how diverse adult sexuality really is: including factors
ranging from: some men and women are far more inclined towards fidelity than
others...It appears to be somewhat typical that men are far more caught up
with the emotional bonding of the sex itself in that, they more often tend
to leave if the sex is no longer 'happening there' whereas females seem more
often inclined to an emotional bond that wants to 'still be there' even when
a sexual relationship ends.  Some of this is financial and parental, but
some of it is not.

As it happens, I think that if I were not poly, I would have just settled
down with a husband, would probably still be with my second husband if not
someone from even earlier in my life...the thing is that has really appeared
to not be my nature...so there has been a lot of serialized monogyny "Only
do me, until or unless it becomes more important to you to be able to have
sex with someone else than to stick with me" which has often included a lot
of inner psycho-sexual DRAMA during a serial relationship with a man.
Believe it or not, upon reflection, most of the DRAMA was in fact 'happening
more in my own head than in the world'...but it was not rooted in total
delusion, just some distortion.

It is true that I am more, often far more inclined to at least give fidelity
a real GO when with a man who is much more naturally inclined to sexual
fidelity to one partner himself...but because many men are not, and because
of 'cheating anxieties' and because of the projections caused because I had
mistakenly believed that my sexuality was completely normal and pretty much
just like everyone else's...it took many years for me to even realize that a
fidelity oriented man who told me, "Just you is really OK with me," was
telling me the actual truth, in fact.  So, this is proof that not all men
are alike & not all women are alike.

I have attempted poly a few times...and so far, I'd have to say it went a
bit better the second time: that was like 10 years or longer after I had
tried it the first time.  

The good news is, that all of the time it was multiple men [never all at
once only one at a time in terms of sexual activity] and in a minority of
the cases also involved multiple women, but not so much with everyone's
agreement...somewhere in most of the cases someone was lied to, or denied
information or misled in some way, either emotionally or in terms of
information.

The good news, as far as character development goes, is that I am truly
proud to report that I managed to do it without cheating, although there
were a couple of times when I slept with my second husband but did not
inform my boyfriend until later [it was generally a serial monogyny case but
not always because I wanted it that way, but out of a personal dedication to
honesty: for we must have TRUST, I feel...]...

Most of the time though, the men got upset and then, so did I...sooner or
later, someone's jealousy began to be a problem and on my end what I faced
was fear related to being truly loved and frustration that the most common
interpretation of efforts at poly were interpreted as 'Oh, she doesn't want
commitment' which was absolutely FALSE 99% of the time.

So, after that I just felt so pressured in weird ways that I felt a bit
'afraid to do anything' or to even try having a relationship because of
these very issues...

Admittedly, there have been a couple of other reasons, but that's pretty
much 'what it really is'.

The issue regarding the sensitivities that individuals have about how much
privacy is needed...a lot of women are like that about masturbation, but
sometimes it is about 'other attractions'...

This is a legitimate issue: some people really want to be free to act on
these matters without feeling 'spied on' by a main partner solely because of
some deep personal sense of privacy.  However, there are also many cases
where it is the need to develop a deeper and more intense sense of mutual
intimacy.

It is very true, however, that some folks, especially your more conventional
married or cohabitating people would really prefer that their lover keep any
affair as a secret if only to protect the main lover's feelings and to
control jealous emotions.

Of course the trouble with that is that, fear of 'cheating' can also
notoriously create really bizarre, warped and unhealthy forms of jealousy
and anxiety: my 3rd ex-husband, when he met me was still hung up on whether
his former first wife had cheated on him shortly prior to the end of their
marriage and bears a fidelity issue himself that he was certainly tending to
project: in fact, it matched my own projections in many ways.  This was one
of the great results though, was that he and I were open enough with one
another communicatively about all that to find out that we were projecting
on other people because of how we are.

Finally, there are in many cases, tendencies that develop in people who had
parental infidelity as an issue of the parents' marriage or relationship.
This is worth noting just so that all of you can check around in your own
lives and selves how all you work and all that.

Hope this helps, and maybe someone will reply with something that helps me.

Thanks for this...pardon me for using my so-called real name: Miriam S Pia




Message: 6
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 00:26:34 -0800
From: "David Hall" <airsafe1@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Story and a question
To: <uupoly-l@uupa.org>
Message-ID: <001701c75336$807f8a50$2402a8c0@davey>
Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"

Blanketz wrote:

But in this current marriage, I just feel like there is much caring and love
I am missing out on, and recognize a growing affection, even crushes on men
and women I know and care about.  But I fight it.  And here is the
challenge. My current husband told me he is open to me exploring polyamory
on my own, as long as he was informed and involved the whole way. That is
all well and good, but I don't want every move I make scrutinized by him.


This part caused me to wonder WHY you feel your current marriage is missing
"much caring and love". What are you doing besides looking outside the
marriage for replacements, if that is what you actually are doing. In your
previous marriage (before the coming out), did you feel the same feelings,
and fight them? Is there still some unresolved injury from finding out that
your ex worked so damn hard to hide who he was so he could fit into society?
You are not responsible for any of that, please do not accept any
responsibility for his decision to hide, and love him for finally deciding
to live his own life. I congratulate you on keeping good contact, and you
were NOT a "blind idiot", he was well practiced at hiding before you met
him.

I am going to a memorial tomorrow for one of my loves, a beautiful woman
who, thru 2 marriages and 2 kids pretended to be male when she knew inside
she was female. She lost everything (wife who she loved, kids, job, church,
money) when she finally made her decision to be who she truly was. After
many years she finally found the woman of her dreams and they were to be
married in June. I wanted to perform the ceremony. She had a heart attack
and died just after Christmas. I am pretty sensitive to this subject right
now. Bless you for letting him go.

As others have said, communication is the key, not about how much you share,
but how honest you are about how you feel and what you are doing. My wife
and I went to a play tonight, and after we talked about how she wanted to
take the leading man home with us, and I wanted to take most of the females
in the cast as well. We like each others' taste in people, and can laugh and
share about it. It might help if you both could learn to comment about
feelings without having to do anything about them.

Thanks for sharing with this list, and Bright Blessings as you work this
out.

Dave





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Message: 7
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 07:59:43 -0500
From: "K Morgan-Davie" <kmorgandavie@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Story and a question
To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
Message-ID:
	<6e3f60570702180459gc01477fo8374470ab6d45350@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

About new poly's,

One little thing I'd like to inject here, as one half of a partnership that
blew up when poly became an issue - not because of poly, but because the
primary relationship wasn't strong enough to withstand the strain of a
change of heart.
 No matter how much talking and honesty and careful consideration you and
your partner share, he could still get to the point of your beginning your
explorations and change his mind.  I did, and it shocked the hell out of
me.  She and I had talked and loved and agreed that this was something she
needed, I might like to do the same one day, I supported her explorations, I
encouraged her to make the phone call to get that first date - and suddenly
2 weeks later I realized, I couldn't do this, I wasn't ready, we weren't
ready...
 So ask yourself, ahead of time, what will you do if this man you are
committed to changes his mind after you've already added your commitment to
this SNL?  Will you have the power within you to stop, turn away, and return
to your primary to start the process again?
In peace, Keith

On 2/17/07, blanketz <honestly.martha@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Well, that's close Laura.
>
> I am not doing anything, just avoiding talking with him about it, until
> I'm
> more ready to bring that back up; reading, trying to come to a better
> understanding of how to do this right and keep everything up front. He
> only
> mentioned it as an acceptable thing to him last October. And we'd talked
> about it prior only as an option if both agreed.
>
> So yeah, it seems like I don't want to inform him where my thought process
> is.  Doesn't it. See how this turned into a struggle for me. Do crushes I
> have need to be verbalized, how much do you reveal, especially in 99.9% of
> the time people I am attracted to will not be possible partners. I just
> need
> to work this out with him.
>
> I didn't mean to hope for support for hiding any developing relationship
> from him.  The thing I failed to say was that I am thankful for the
> discussion in this mail list, and recognise that there is a way to get
> where
> I want to be, in relationships that work for everyone.  Having been on the
> untold side for so long, I have pledged not to put anyone else in that
> position.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
>
>
>
> On 2/17/07, Laura Stewart <mathlaura@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Am I hearing you correctly that you don't want to inform him of
> > everything that's going on, which was his requirement for exploring
> > poly, and that is why you are not moving forward?
> >
> > If this is indeed what you are saying: I do not say this to be
> > unsupportive to you, but that is not reasonable.  Polyamory comes in
> > many forms, but making any of them work requires open communication,
> > agreement from all involved parties, and honesty.
> >
> > -Laura
> >
> > On 2/17/07, blanketz <honestly.martha@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I just feel compelled to thank everyone on this list for helping me
> > reason
> > > through some very contradictory feelings associated with life
> > experiences I
> > > have had.
> > >
> > > I am not a practicing poly, not a swinger, really a practical
> monogamist
> > in
> > > a legal marriage on my second try.  But I want to do things
> differently
> > this
> > > go around.  Five years into this marriage, I started feeling not so
> > > satisfied with the status quo, not that I didn't feel loved-but I felt
> > there
> > > was something missing-something else I should be doing.
> > >
> > > My first marriage ended when he jumped out of the closet (after 17
> yrs)
> > as
> > > gay, pretty much rejecting me wholly as a partner in all ways, and it
> > > devastated me sexually and emotionally.  I wanted to try to contiunue
> > the
> > > relationship-even the marriage, but I needed to feel like I was
> > wanted.  I
> > > found through counseling with him that while he wished me well, any
> > future
> > > physical sexual or metasexual relationship would not be happening from
> > his
> > > side.  He fully intended to live fully in his second 40 years as the
> gay
> > man
> > > he always should have been.  Despite the existing proof that he fought
> > the
> > > valiant fight (through fathering 3 kids with me) he no longer had it
> in
> > him
> > > to care about trying.  So now we succesfully co-parent with some
> > bitterness
> > > on my part, someday I hope to forgive myself for being a blind idiot.
> > >
> > > But in this current marriage, I just feel like there is much caring
> and
> > love
> > > I am missing out on, and recognize a growing affection, even crushes
> on
> > men
> > > and women I know and care about.  But I fight it.  And here is the
> > > challenge. My current husband told me he is open to me exploring
> > polyamory
> > > on my own, as long as he was informed and involved the whole way. That
> > is
> > > all well and good, but I don't want every move I make scrutinized by
> > him.
> > > I'd like to think I can make some personal explorations without him
> > standing
> > > outside the door, so to speak.  But so far I am not moving forward, as
> I
> > > seem to be stuck in this spot-knowing that if so moved, I could
> without
> > > facing recriminations. I almost don't believe him, and worry about
> > messing
> > > things up.
> > >
> > > Have any long time practicing polys in this mailing list been where I
> > am?
> > >
> > > Thanks for allowing me to read and learn from you all.
> > >
> > > I was a member at All Souls UU Shreveport when the whole mess with the
> > ex
> > > blew up.  I fear my week after week of
> tearful-to-the-point-of-muteness
> > > alientated me from the members.  I don't think I articulated the
> process
> > I
> > > was going through very well. I no longer live near enough to attend,
> and
> > > long for the welcoming embrace of the UU community still.
> > >
> > > -bb
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> > > Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to reveal about
> > yourself.
> > > UUPoly-L mailing list
> > > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> > > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to reveal about
> yourself.
> > UUPoly-L mailing list
> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to reveal about yourself.
> UUPoly-L mailing list
> UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
>


------------------------------

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End of UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 29, Issue 17
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