Re: [UUPoly-L] Poly Reality

[P O <wild_card@sbcglobal.net>]

Kelly,
   
  Well, my first thought is that women in polygamous marriages are in a similar situation to prostitutes.  In other words, many of the problems they face are dues to the fact that their lifestyle is illegal.  If a prostitute is beaten by a customer or pimp, or short changed by either, she has no legal recourse.  If she goes to the police, she will likely end up in jail.  Many women in polygamous marriages face the same issue, they can't seek legal aid, since they risk jail and having their children taken away by the state as well.  Aid to that, that many of the abusive polygamous systems use religion as a basis for justifying both the relationship and the abuse, and they are left with little outside support.
   
  However, I don't see that as commonplace among those that self-identify as polyamorous.  I actually see the two groups as distinctly different, though likely the law wouldn't.  
   
  Anyway, I feel these are all very excellent points as to the types of issues that will arise with allowing multi-partner marriages.  I will agree with you that this society is not yet ready for this idea, as there is a lot of issues to resolve.  Of course, I see a number of very simple solutions to many of these issues, but they all involve steps that are in many ways even more radical then legal poly would be.  Personally, I think that our society needs to finally grow up.  
   
  I had a conversation about this with my girlfriend a week or so ago.  Mainly it came down to her insistence that things like greed are just human nature and you'll never get away from it as long as you have people involved.  I put that in the same catagory as saying jealousy is just human nature.  In fact, I see both as learned responses based on scarcity thinking.  If you approach life from a viewpoint of abundance (which the self-described 'wealthiest country in the world' certainly should be able to), such scarcity thinking should be able to be overcome.  But let me give some direct answers, instead of just vague generalities.
   
  How would I see dealing with health insurance issues?  Get rid of the health insurance industry by creating a national health care system such as those used in less affluent countries like The Netherlands or Canada.  One would think that with the resources of something like the United States, that should be easy.  Well, not easy, but certainly possible.
   
  How to deal with taxes?  Well start by simplifying the tax codes by removing deductions and credits.  That way, you just pay a set tax based on your income.  This much smilper system has the added benefit of removing much of the tax prep industry and most of the need for the IRS.  Yes, this would be quite a burden on those at the lower end of the payscale, but you can compensate for that by staging back the amount of tax paid at each bracket over a period of several years.  Of course, I'd rathee eliminate an income tax completely, but I realize that's a bit too radical.  Still it will require triming back an awful lot of the government expenses, but that's fine.  The health plan above will replace the current package given to elected officials which currently costs the tax payers quite a bit.  tha along with many of the other perks given to elected officals could save millions each year.
   
  Then we might have to scale back from trying to outspend the entire rest of the world in military budget (See the CIA World Fact Book for spending comparisons).  Even then there will be hard choices to make, but not insurmountable.
   
  As for the the rest of your issues, my solutions get a bit radical in comparison.
   
  Basically, I see that our whole society needs to be re-engineered from the bottom up (top-down social re-engineering never really works well) in order to incorporate poly in a legal definition of family.  Of course, I think it would be a much saner and healthier society, so I'm all for it.  I hope my great-grandkids get to see the beginings of it.  But you're right, now is the time to start laying the groundwork.  The Women's Rights Movement has been going on since at least the 1700s and see how much further they still have to go.  I figure poly is going to take a while too.

  Pat
  
uupoly-l-request@uupa.org wrote:
    

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 31 May 2007 14:47:41 -0500
From: "Kelly Cookson" 
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Poly reality
To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

> > I'm just trying to understand why polygamy is perceived as being more
> > exploitative than monogamy -- and why protections built into current
> > monogamy couldn't be extended to polygamy.

>>>That was my thought as well. Most (all?) of the abuses that can occur
>>>in a polygamous marriage can occur in a monogamous marriage and are
>>>already covered by current laws, are they not?

>>>What new abuses are possible in a polygamous marriage that aren't
>>>covered under our existing laws?

Right now, if a man decides to marry a woman and set up a family in San 
Diego, and then decides to marry another woman and set up a family in New 
York city. Neither family knows about the other. This is illegal. It can 
cause emotional damage, legal complications, and possibly financial damage. 
If we legalize multi-partner marriage, the man can claim he is just 
practicing polygamy, since it would be legal to have more than one wife. 
This would require some new protection. Maybe a law saying you couldn't take 
on additional husbands or wives without at least notifying the other 
husbands and wives in advance. That's not something we have on the books.

Right now, if a man divorces his wife and leaves his kids, he might well get 
stuck with alimony payments and child support. But, if polygamy is legal, he 
a new option. He can simply marry another wife and go live with her. Because 
he's not divorced, he's not required to pay alimony or child support. The 
first wife could divorce him, but then he could claim he never wanted the 
divorce and he could retaliate by trying to get sole custody of the children 
(take the first wife's children away from her). He would have a better shot 
at doing so, since living in a home with two parents might be perceived as 
better than letting the children stay with the single parent. Should we pass 
a law saying that indiovudal income should be divided fairly among spouses? 
Or do we need divorce laws to handle situations involving multiple husbands 
and wives? Either way, we don't have the laws on the books.

Suppose a man cheats on his wife for many years. She discovers the affair 
and threatens to divorce him, leaving him with nothing. Before the divorce 
takes place, the man can marry the othe woman, claim his affair was just a 
courting period, and tell the court he doesn't want the divorce and is being 
treated unfairly. How can we prevent cheaters from getting last minute legal 
coverage? That's not a simple extension of existing laws.

But it's not just abuses. There are SO many other changes, too! Family law, 
divorce law, tax law, business law...a lot will have to change to accomodate 
multi-partner marriages.

My partner marries someone. I don't marry the person. (Or is that even a 
legal possibility?) That person signs up for a whole bunch of new credit 
cards and runs up $200,000 in debt. Am I legally protected from the debt of 
the spouse of my spouse? We don't know. We don't have laws covering this.

I'm an employer. I hire a guy who says he has 1 wife and 1 child. A month 
later, he has married two more wives (he was just waiting until he had a 
job). He now has 3 wives and 7 children. I tell him he will only get 
employee benefits (dental, medical, and so forth) for the first wife and any 
children genetically related to her. Can he sue me for benefits for the rest 
of his family? Can I charge him a different family rate for insurance than I 
charge the other employees who have only one wife? We don't know. No laws 
cover this sitiuation.

I'm married to a woman and have a child with her. She marries another woman 
without my approval. The woman has 3 children from previous marriages. I 
change my will to specifically say my inheritance should pass only to my own 
child. But after I die, the other children contest the will claiming they 
are legally my children, too, and so deserve part of my inheritance. Do 
they? Is my child just screwed down 1/4 of her or his inheritance? Or does 
inheritance in multipartner marriages follow genetic lines? We don't know. 
There are no laws covering this on the books.

Who can I claim on my tax forms? Shouldn't we have new forms for families 
with multiple married partners? And tax laws will have to modified to 
determine who gets what tax shelters or tax benefits on these forms.

We can create laws to cover all kinds of anticipated situations. But it's 
not just a matter of extending existing laws. It will require new laws that 
specify the problems and propose remedies (or sentences).

When I see the package of bills that reasonably attempts to protect the 
participants from abuses and to resolve a host of anticipated problems in 
family and business law, then I might support the legalization of 
multi-partner marriage. Until then, I don't support it.

:-)
Kelly