Re: [UUPoly-L] Poly reality

wabaldwin@aol.com · Sat, 19 May 2007 04:24:43 -0000

 I clearly remember, from when I was 13 or so, reading that 12-year old girls and 13 year old boys (I think that was right) could marry in New Hampshire with their parents' consent.

 The last time I checked, though, it looked like most states had upped the age to 16 or 18.

 However, I'll confess I was rushing somewhere when I wrote my post. At any rate, I don't object to polygyny (or any of the other mentioned varieties of poly-love and -marriage mentioned in this thread) -- but polygamy as practiced by the Utah Mormons is not a good role-model. I can support their multiple wives -- but I would have to insist on a few conditions that *they* don't currently accept.

 Bill

 -----Original Message-----
 From: polyfi@comcast.net
 To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
 Sent: Fri, 18 May 2007 7:47 PM
 Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Poly reality

  Bill, and others,

The reality of it, is that it's two-sided.  Monogamy has the same "faults" as 
you point out.
In many states marriages are allowed where one of the couple may be as young as 
12 or 13.  Check the minimum age standards in Kansas and Massachusetts, for 
example. (at that age parental consent is required)

Second, we know that monogamists also have arranged marriages, where one or the 
other, maybe both, have little say in whom they marry.  Parents often pick 
partners even in monogamy.  And, we know that age 12 or 13, legally, is  below 
the age of consent, but parents do the consenting for them, legally.

Finally, most of the faults of either polygamy, or monogamy cannot be witnessed 
and corrected when/IF it is underground, or illegal.  Things can only be 
regulated best when they are legal, and the community is aware of the different 
relationships, and people do not fear living openly in "public".

The worse abomination, for me, as a U-U, is having "one-way for all." (and that 
way put into legislation, making other choices criminal -- as monogamy is now 
the "one way for all")  
That's why, I feel, that if the UUPA doesn't support LDS Polygamy, then it 
doesn't have a leg to stand on, to support polyamory for other UU's, themselves, 
or anyone else.

You may notice that many conservative have already put forth the conclusion, 
that if gays and lesbians get the legal right to marry, then polygamy will be 
the next step in community acceptance.  Because if two lesbians or two gay men 
can marry, (that will do away with the old definitions, of marriage is between 
one man, and one woman).  
The point is, we have to be ready to fight for the next step, that is,  new 
pioneering forms of marriage in the future.  Just about anything, IMO is better 
than the current standard of serial monogamy, and more and more people living 
ALONE in single-adult communities, more isolated, consuming more resources, ect.

Dave (of K.C. Mo.)   

-------------- Original message -------------- 
From: wabaldwin@aol.com 

> I have no problem *in theory* in supporting the right of a man to have several 

> wives. 
> 
> My problem with the Utah polygamists *begins* with, what they do seems to 
> include forcing teenage girls to marry them. 
> 
> And goes on from there -- they don't believe in allowing a woman to have 
> several husbands. Or for several men and women to all be married as a group. 
Or 
> in allowing dignity to gays, lesbians or bisexuals. 
> 
> In fact, while they insist that their men are religiously *obligated* to taken 

> several wives, they refer to us polyamorists as "abominations". 
> 
> Technically, I suppose I do support their desire to have mulitiple wives -- 
but 
> only equal, consenting, wives. 
> 
> ...when and if we are allowed polyamorous and gender-inclusive marriage. 
> 
> Bill 
> 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: licorice.gumdrop@gmail.com 
> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org 
> Sent: Fri, 18 May 2007 2:07 PM 
> Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Poly reality 
> 
> no, no, no, and NO. 
> 
> support an institutionalized practice that is sexist, marginalizing, 
> and demeaning to women? within a religion that goes out of its way to 
> step on the toes of other belief structures? great cthulhu, NO. 
> 
> i completely reject the idea that the mormon polygamist struggle is 
> part of any struggle, real or otherwise, in which polyamorous people 
> as a whole (whatever that may mean) should be engaged. 
> 
> the argument that if mormon polygamists "do not win civil rights, 
> then we will never win them" is completely nonsensical. it holds 
> about as much merit as arguing that if NAMBLA's agenda isn't 
> legitimized, the oceans will surely rise twenty feet in the next decade. 
> 
> i'm sure others will do a much better job at describing the inherent 
> injustices of mormon polygamy. but how does working to legitimize a 
> practice that by its very nature denies gender equality affirm or 
> promote the inherent worth and dignity of every person? 
> 
> i apologize if i'm overreacting, but i'm going to go puke now. 
> 
> jenny 
> 
> 
> On May 18, 2007, at 11:38 AM, polyfi@comcast.net wrote: 
> 
> > I hope that the upcominhg uupa.org, and UU GA's in Portland, will 
> > AT THE LEAST, express their support for polygamists in Utah. I'm 
> > not saying we accept polyamy as part of the "normal" polyamory, 
> > because it in fact predated modern polyamory. But, the struggle in 
> > Utah, is also "our struggle", because if they do not win civil 
> > rights, then we will never win them, not even under the UU umbrella. 
> 
> > 
> > Dave (All Souls UU, Kansas City, Mo) 
> > _______________________________________________ 
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