Re: [UUPoly-L] Neuroscience, Insanity, and Comprehension

["David Hall" <airsafe1@comcast.net>]

I copied this from the web site of Dorothy Tennov, it sums it up very well

"Dorothy Tennov, Ph.D.
Independent Scholar (1928 - 2007)

    As a critic and observer of science, Dorothy Tennov liked to take on big
issues, not necessarily popular issues. The common theme unifying her
thinking and writing was a call for improvement of the human condition
through science and great dissatisfaction with the human sciences during her
lifetime.

    She didn't see limerence (a term she invented, which is now part of the
lexicon) as particularly "functional" for its victims, but rather one of the
many tricks evolution has played on us that cause us to operate
independently of our own welfare as defined by our conscious and reasoned
goals, our pleasures and reasoned fears. It takes over."

I will add a big AMEN to that, been there, done that.

Dave Hall 

-----Original Message-----
From: uupoly-l-bounces+airsafe1=comcast.net@uupa.org
[mailto:uupoly-l-bounces+airsafe1=comcast.net@uupa.org] On Behalf Of Fritz
Neumann
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2007 5:24 PM
To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Neuroscience, Insanity, and Comprehension

Ah - Don't mistake explanation for justification!

I was merely trying to at least give some comprehensible idea of why and how
a trusted loved one could seem to turn so alien and nasty, Jekyll-and-Hyde
like, which is what seemed to be baffling both you and Penna. I've seen it
happen with others. And it's happened to me too, although not to the extreme
levels you guys saw. Heck, I'm sure I've even been guilty of it myself...
although, again, perhaps not to these extremes. But isn't it just a matter
of degree?

What is important to recognize, I think, is the raw power that these
reptile-level drives like limerence have over us. They are more ancient than
anything going on in our rational/emotional neocortex, and to think we can
simply brush them aside and ignore them is hubris and denial at its most
naive.

Tennov documented many perfectly normal, functional, and rational people -
of all ages - doing absolutely outrageous things in the throes of limerence.
There is good reason we use language like "madly in love" or "crazy about a
lover".
The fMRI studies confirm it: it is indeed a form of madness, a temporary
insanity where the organism's normal value system is turned topsy-turvy.

Why? Well, fundamentally in order to bond, mate, and stick around long
enough to get offspring off the ground. The reptile brain doesn't comprehend
that you may be using birth control, whether you identify as poly or mono,
or even if you're sterilized: it's pursuing the ancient agenda of DNA, the
agenda of the gene, to replicate sexually, plain and simple.

I think it's important is for us to fully acknowledge that, as wonderful as
this limerent state can be - inspiring poetry, art, music, encouraging us to
be our very best - its irrational basis can also bring out our worst dark
sides as well, our savage animal natures, in just as extreme a manner:
jealous rages, co-dependence, and in these cases, the irrational and
seemingly unnecessary vilification of an erstwhile lover. They are not
"rationalizations" at all - in fact, their raw irrationality makes them
something more like the opposite of rationalization. It's as if limerence
has taken over and said, "This is who you will be with. You want this more
than anything else and NOTHING can get in the way of this. Now, warp the
rest of your reality to fit that fact." And, by and large, people do!

Don't get me wrong: I am also predisposed to expect everyone to exercise
rational, responsible free will in all things. But the science simply flies
in the face of that. We are not that evolved, nor inherently that rational.
I've heard one anthropologist describe homo sapiens as little more than
"super chimpanzees". During most of our conscious lives, our reptile brain
is largely quiet, since usually its primary concern is self-preservation.
But when it comes to finding a mate, we awaken a sleeping giant - one that
is not the least bit concerned about rationality or justifications, and is
used to getting its way through the sheer influence and power of dopamine,
norepinephrine, oxytocin, vasopressin, and serotonin. It's important to be
realistic about this, to comprehend our own limits. To understand that our
hope, our vision for how we *should* be, is not necessarily the reality we
have now.

But we have all largely lived in ignorance about this limerence cycle, or at
best had only naive acceptance of it. Tennov spent a good deal of her time
just trying to convince other academics that the process of "falling in
love" was even something that could ever be studied scientifically, and this
was the 1970's, a generation after Kinsey! But now that we *know* we are
capable of such irrational behavior, and can start to understand *why*... I
think therein lies our best hope for positive change. That's what drives me
to spread this information. I think it is especially important for poly
people to understand this about themselves, about their lovers, about this
important piece of our biology that, after all, is one large part of why
we're the dominant species on this planet: because something in us drove us
to breed like rabbits - no,
*better* than the rabbits - and fill all corners of the Earth with our
progeny.
Sex and mating is the one constant across all human cultures, throughout all
human history.

But that understanding - and more importantly, the willingness to change our
own behavior to the extent possible in light of that understanding - is a
change that must begin from within... and while again this is no
justification for those who follow that path of irrationally promoting the
new limerent object while simultaneously devaluing their previous lover,
let's also not just feel dazed, stunned, stupefied, powerless, and
victimized, either. It's not as incomprehensible as it may seem on the
surface, especially once you understand the deep-rooted mechanisms at work
in our own brains.

Instead, I think we should watch, listen, learn, and grow! Realize that we
are all capable of being monsters just as much as we are all capable of
being in love. And that, in fact, the more we elevate the one form of
madness, the more we open ourselves to the other as well. Let's step back a
bit from this whole "falling in love" process and determine if it's really
as wonderful as we think we want it to be. Let's dare to ask Aphrodite the
hard questions, the ones she's not used to being asked: the ones which
require her to explain herself.

Can we overcome this? Well, certainly not if we are in denial about its
power!
What I have come to respect are those poly people who can acknowledge those
urges towards exclusivity in the face of a new lover and yet somehow find
the willpower to keep them in check, to give their existing partners their
due, to think about their relationships in a larger perspective while still
perhaps enjoying some of the immediate pleasures of limerence. For some this
seems to come naturally - I've certainly heard some folk tell of being
simply "born poly". Bully for them! Yet I find those who struggle infinitely
more interesting, and sympathetic. They are the poly people who stand upon
the brink of madness, risking much. They are the ones Brad Blanton called,
"the R&D department of relationships".

Nietszche said, "Beware hunting monsters lest you become a monster
yourself."
Let's not make a monster of these aspects of human behavior, but come to
understand where they come from, so that we may both transcend and include
them into ourselves, instead of becoming the very monster we set out to
hunt.

  >*< Fritz


--- Anita Wagner <imapolygirl@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Fritz said:
>  
> > Now Anita, if you had ever been to one of my presentations on 
> > neuroscience
> and
> > love, you would have a clearer understanding of why this happens!
> 
> Actually I did, but somehow I hadn't connected the info to that period 
> in my life.  And I agree that Tennov and Fisher tell a powerful story.  
> Together they explain a lot of why we do what we do for love.
> 
> > Well, even though Tennov didn't study it, I think clearly there is a 
> > flip
> side
> > to this effect, and that is, as much as the limerent object is being
> elevated,
> > to simultaneously minimize and suppress any "contenders". I think 
> > we've all seen this many times - this recent situation on list being 
> > a prime example,
> as
> > is your prior experience, Anita.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> > Even being aware, it can be extremely difficult to struggle against,
> depending
> > on the particular mix of brain chemistry you have. So, perhaps in 
> > that knowledge there can also be sympathy for those who seem to suddenly
"turn"
> on a
> > longtime lover - they are as much victims of their own brain 
> > chemistry as anything... and their rational mind is simply being 
> > flooded over by that
> older
> > reptile brain. 
> 
> Sheesh.  You may well be right, but I'm not especially inclined to cut 
> my ex much slack on that account - not so much for his falling for 
> another and leaving our marriage, but instead for the way he handled 
> it.  It's hard to imagine that this intelligent man with an upper 
> crust ivy league education just couldn't help himself from making up 
> lies about me in order to justify his own actions, though I'll admit 
> that he seemed quite convinced as to the "truth" of them, and nothing 
> I could say or do could change his mind.  He clearly had no incentive 
> to do so, quite the opposite.  Still, I don't think much of people who 
> engage in that sort of self-serving self-delusion.  We have higher brain
functions for a reason.  .
> 
> Oddly, when it comes to discussions about genetic 
> predisposition/predetermination, in the past I have tended to be 
> irritated by those who make this last argument.  We hear it frequently 
> from people who think monogamy is the only moral choice and who argue 
> forcefully that we have free will and the necessary intelligence to 
> make the "right" choice however much we may be genetically 
> predisposed, as Fisher says, to pair bond non-exclusively over the 
> long term.  The same argument is often heard against the idea of 
> homosexuality being genetically predetermined.  I accept the idea that 
> limerence was the force driving my ex's determination to end our 
> marriage.  But he had a choice as to whether to villify me and cause 
> me much emotional pain.  Choosing that means of exit allowed him to 
> feel OK about it at my expense, and he did have a choice.  Nice for him.
I sure didn't have one.
> 
> Societal conditioning says that those who break others' hearts are the 
> bad guys, and social opprobrium is a powerful thing.  If your theory 
> is correct, it would seem that our societal assumptions about such matters
are off base,
> at least to some degree.   I get your point that some of the way many
behave
> may be more appropriately attributable to the way we are wired to mate. 
> Still, we live in the here and now.  Call me a dreamer, but I think 
> many of us have the capacity to hold ourselves to a higher standard 
> when it comes to the ethics of breaking up and moving on.  It does 
> demand a fairly high level of intelligence, emotional and otherwise.
> 
> > The instinct to mate is very deep rooted and pre-rational: while we 
> > as a species might be on the verge of wresting some conscious 
> > control
> over
> > that process, it's a tenuous advantage at best.
> > 
> > And it's one that I argue we will continue to lose so long as we 
> > continue
> to be
> > in love with the idea of being in love.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, talk to the hand ....... (grinning)   I doubt
the
> chemical cocktail responsible is ever going to stop running through 
> our veins, or that we will ever gain the ability to neutralize it 
> entirely, but I agree that an understanding of what limerence is and 
> why it happens gives us a useful advantage.
> 
> Great discussion!
> 
> Anita

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