Re: [UUPoly-L] 2,3,4,Re: a troublesome thought
1. A troublesome thought (Michael Paprocki)
2. Re: A troublesome thought (CWLee)
3. Re: A troublesome thought (licorice gumdrop)
4. Re: A troublesome thought (Married Lesbians)
First of all - thank you all immensely for taking the time to respond to my musing. I am learning something here. I would like to resond in turn to some of what has been written.
1. A trouble ...
Michael Paprocki
Go Poly people - Go Valerie
Thank you for writing something in the UUPoly-L Digest.
Thank you for the touching anecdote as well.
It is indeed an historic campaign because of your being able to tell that story.
I imagine we are not to be political here - but I for one am proud to be voting for that man of color.
I've had a disturbing (to me) thought however
What if this man of color were not;
a) a man of color,
b) a Democrate,
c) having a quasi-socialistic orientation.
Would I still feel the same way about him?
I answer myself - with some shame - that I think I might not.
I think I'm under the influence of the good guy (that's a,b, and c) winning thingy.
Hummmm...
If he weren't the "good guy" in all three (to me) - which one would win out.
I need to remind myself that it would STILL be an historic campaign if he weren't b) and c).
Also - did I miss issue 1?
Michael Paprocki
2. Re: A trouble...
CWLee
> It is indeed an historic campaign ...
> I imagine we are not to be political here - but I for one
> am proud to be voting for that man ...
Since we seem to be more open today in expressing political
preferences, I too will depart from the norm and share an
email I received today from one of "my" poly people who is
87 years old:
"I am so afraid that Obama is going to win. So many people
seem to be sucked in by his charisma and ability to make
such
great speeches. Not that they have much content. Reminds
me of how Hitler, who had the same charisma and ability to
make moving speeches, sucked in all those young Germans."
Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
----------
CWLee
Former slayer of dragons; practice now limited to sacred
cows. Believing we should hire for quality, not quotas, and
promote for performance, not preferences.
I think I pick up on two main points:
a) Not to follow like a blind sheep someone who happens to be a good orator
b) Not to select based upon color, but upon qualifications
In response to a):
Point taken. I parhaps am a little "dazzled." I DO need to be more aware of what is "dazzle" and what is substance - although I didn't perceive Palin's attempt to "dazzle" (and I conceed that she was trying a little different kind of "dazzling") as anything like substance. [Maybe dance around is a better term than dazzle.] And I very much see BOTH candidates as using their own techniques meant to dazzle or engender awe. "Let us be very clear about that" - "my friends."
I response to b):
Thinking about my initial shame - I should not be ashamed at all. I was ashamed of perhaps not feeling the same if that a) man of color was not also b) a Demotrate, and c) of a quasi-socialistic orientation. What you I THINK are saying - and what I think I agree with - is that if he didn't have certain qualities (in addition to being a man of color) I should not select him (that is, I SHOULD feel differently).
To comment further:
The explicit comparison to Hitler in his perhaps being just a good orator I think may be fair. The implicit comparison to Hitler in his perhaps being as evil I think is unfair.
3. Re: A trouble...
licorice gumdrop
<snip>
> I've had a disturbing (to me) thought however
> What if this man of color were not;
> a) a man of color,
> b) a Democrate,
> c) having a quasi-socialistic orientation.
> Would I still feel the same way about him?
> I answer myself - with some shame - that I think I might not.
two questions:
(1) how do you feel about alan keyes or clarence thomas?
(2) why the shame? are you proud to be voting for obama because he's black,
or because you believe his politics are better for the country, and - as an
added bonus - he just happens to be black?
i'm thrilled to be able to participate in a landmark election - thrilled
that in my lifetime, the field is no longer limited to old white men (yes,
in 1992, bill clinton looked old to me - and i know that sarah palin isn't
the first female veep candidate). and while i have a definite preference
for one ticket over the other, i don't fear that either one is the second
coming of hitler.
happy voting,
Responding to (2) first:
You know l..g.., I think so. I was proud to be voting for Obama because I was proud to be voting for a black man of color. Now - that could be good...or bad when I think about it. I could be proud because I was voting for a black man because I felt that made me somehow superior to some others who wouldn't be voting for him because he was black. I would consider that pretty bad. OR...I could be proud to be voting for a black man because it means I have won my own personal battle with feeling uncomfortable in regard to black people. That I would consider pretty good.
Responding to (1) then:
I was aware of Clarence Thomas. I had to Google Alan Keyes (Oooops?). However - at first I said of both of them "Who?" Then I realized who you were talking about in Clarence Thomas. Then I said "That's right - he's black." I think I can re-apply what I said in the above paragraph. I am now really comfortible with black people. I DO still have trouble with some behaviors. And I know this involves some stereotyping (also NOT something to be proud of). I am not for instance comfortible in a colored only church where People are belting out bible songs. I was not comfortible when about 10 colored teenager strolled into the McDonald's I was in a jivin and a mother-fuckin and taking over the place like they owned it while not ordering anything. (I felt relief when they left.) I need to work some more I guess.
To comment further:
I feel as you do that there is probably no one that our society would let lead us in a direction similar to that that Hitler did. At least everyone I know would question what was going on. The strong majority would also do something long before there "was no one left."
Re: a trouble...
Married Lesbians
That's rather ironic. I've said the exact same thing about Hitler and John
McCain. Gypsey
...in response to (I'm assuming)
> i'm thrilled to be able to participate in a landmark election - thrilled
> that in my lifetime, the field is no longer limited to old white men (yes,
> in 1992, bill clinton looked old to me - and i know that sarah palin isn't
> the first female veep candidate). and while i have a definite preference
> for one ticket over the other, i don't fear that either one is the second
> coming of hitler.
...or perhaps
"I am so afraid that Obama is going to win. So many people
seem to be sucked in by his charisma and ability to make
such
great speeches. Not that they have much content. Reminds
me of how Hitler, who had the same charisma and ability to
make moving speeches, sucked in all those young Germans."
I admit I'm not sure.
_______________________________________
I would also like to add my two cents about JennyLynn's jealosy. This is what I would say. My God (a coloquialism) JennyLynn - don't be so hard on yourself. I wouldn't even call what you are feeling jealousy! Fear and insecurity are not the same as jealousy (though I believe jealousy can be a secondary emotion that comes from insecurity not owned). You are owning your fear - and I personally feel that any person no matter how "poly" would feel some fear. I would just accept it and perhaps talk about it with someone you trust (for empoathy, understanding, and company). When insecurity and fear are not owned, tney can become warpped into a hatred and anger (and jealousy) regarding the source of the fear. Usually you want to or wish harm to someone. THAT's what I would call jealousy. Be gentle with yourself.
_______________________________________
Michael Paprocki
This archive was generated by a fusion of
Pipermail (Mailman edition) and
MHonArc.