Re: [UUPoly-L] marriage/civil union/whatever

"Catherine Deville" <catdeville@cox.net> · Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:47:41 -0000

This is what a lot of people mean when they say that they want the
government "out of marriage". 

The civil aspects of a marriage have the force of a contract between the
parties.  If marital unions are divided into the religious aspect, and the
civil aspect, then individuals will have the option of being married within
their faith (the religious dimension) and then choosing whether or not to
also file a civil contract with the appropriate legal entity to give that
marriage the benefits, privileges and responsibilities that come with the
force of law.  This has the added advantage that the civil contract would be
customizable to the needs of the individuals involved.  It's quite probable
that the civil authorities would have (as they do with "partnerships")
several standard 'templates' which individuals not desiring customization
could just sign and go or which folks could then amend to their liking, but
individuals would not be restricted to specifics which did not suit their
relationship.  This would also allow the marriage (or civil union) contract
to better protect the individuals involved legal, which is one of the main
reasons for getting a marriage "license" rather than just getting married
within one's church, as it would cover the aspects most likely to impact the
individuals involved. 

And as for minors getting married... As a legally enforceable contract,
minors would not be able to enter into such a contract unless they had
parental permission.  I know that in some cultures parents would give
permission for marriage where we would look askance at it, but parents also
sign entertainment and sports contracts for very young children sometimes to
their detriment, but we permit that.  The age of sexual consent/marital
consent is a very arbitrary thing set by cultural expectations... Which is
why different states have such different and sometimes illogical laws about
it (often boys can marry younger than girls, because boys are seen as being
more sexually active at a younger age, even though young women mature faster
biologically and emotionally, for example.)  Perhaps the best way to deal
with that is to establish the age of consent at 18 as it is for all other
legal contracts, and then, since this contract involves exposing a minor to
sex, require not just parental consent to allow minors to enter into the
contract, but to also require that an objective guardian ad litum or
advocate for the minor(s) be required by the state, and that the minor(s) be
required to undergo an evaluation by social services to insure that they are
indeed entering into the union of their own volition, and that they seem
mature enough to make such a decision. 

And marital contracts do actually have precedent in other societies.  Both
Jewish and Islamic cultures (just off the top of my head) draft marriage
contracts (in traditional cases, between the families, not just the bride
and groom) before the marriage is "legal".  So it's not like this is a new
thing. 

The issue, for some of us at least, is that this is the only type of
contract in which the government interferes to the extent of telling you
with whom and how many you may be involved in partnership.  As a civil
contract, individuals should be able to enter into any type of marital union
with anyone that they wish, and any number that they wish, under any terms
that they wish, and the government should not interfere with that.  As with
other civil contracts, the governments role should be simply to file the
contract, and to see to the breach of contract and dissolution of the
contract if there is a need to do so. 

NT, 
Cat 

-----Original Message-----
From: uupoly-l-bounces+catdeville=cox.net@uupa.org
[mailto:uupoly-l-bounces+catdeville=cox.net@uupa.org] On Behalf Of Desmond
Ravenstone
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 4:31 AM
To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] marriage/civil union/whatever

My own take ... replace government-issued marriage licenses with marital
contracts drafted by the couple and filed with the appropriate government
department.

Instead of the government refusing licensure based on legislative fiat (ie,
no same-sex couples, no epileptics [that was the law, and applied to my
father for some years]) the government would have to provide compelling
interest to void the contract (ie, one or more parties not able to give full
consent).

Desmond Ravenstone

********************

http://www.myspace.com/desmond_ravenstone

--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Fantine <fantine@sonic.net> wrote:

> From: Fantine <fantine@sonic.net>
> Subject: [UUPoly-L] marriage/civil union/whatever
> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> Date: Monday, November 24, 2008, 11:19 PM Why do people say they don't 
> want government involved in marriage?  Marriage/Civil Union/whatever 
> is a collection of LEGAL agreements, the stuff government is made of, 
> as legislatures make law and courts enforce them.
> 
> Personally, I think we should give the word "marriage"
> to churches etc. (with whatever sticky wicket rules each group wants 
> to play by) and have a different term for the legal arrangement, such 
> as "civil union"
> or
> "domestic partnership" for EVERYBODY gay or straight.
> You would have to have a "civil union" filed to get a "marriage 
> license", in order to be "married" by a spiritual leader.
> 
> Have fun with this thought,
> 	Francesca
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: uupoly-l-bounces+fantine=sonic.net@uupa.org
> [mailto:uupoly-l-bounces+fantine=sonic.net@uupa.org] On Behalf Of 
> Anita Wagner
> Sent: Monday, November 24, 2008 1:24 AM
> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 50, Issue
> 19
> 
> It's true that poly marriage is not a high priority for poly people in 
> general.  Personally I'd much rather see government get out of the 
> marriage business altogether.
> 
> 
> 
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