Re: [UUPoly-L] Defending George Tiller

Desmond Ravenstone <desmondravenstone@yahoo.com> · Tue, 02 Jun 2009 01:38:33 -0000

Let's say that he did what these press reports say.  Do you know the full circumstances behind it?  Why the woman was considering it?  The process of decision-making?  If Dr. Tiller is to be remembered and respected for anything, it is recognizing the power and right of women to make such difficult decisions for themselves.

Desmond Ravenstone

"Do not do unto others as you expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same." -- George Bernard Shaw

http://ravenstonesreflections.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/desmond_ravenstone

--- On Mon, 6/1/09, CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu> wrote:

> From: CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
> Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Defending George Tiller
> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 9:31 PM
> 
> "Desmond Ravenstone" <desmondravenstone@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > Dr. Tiller did not perform late-term abortions
> lightly. 
> > Time after time, he saw women with crisis pregnancies
> 
> > involving severe fetal anomalies, including
> anencephaly 
> > (where the fetus does not develop most of the brain,
> skull 
> > and scalp).
> 
> The phrase "Time after time" could be interpreted to mean 
> exclusively; however, there are other news reports that say
> 
> while he did do abortions on such severe cases, he "also 
> aborted healthy late-term fetuses".Â Those abortions
> present 
> me with a more difficult moral problem.
> 
> Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
> 
> =====================================
> 
> >
> > Twelve years ago, he and his staff invited
> legislators, 
> > clergy and media to attend a "clinic experience"
> --Â 
> > including some who had been arrested in protests 
> > blockading the clinic.Â Each guest was given a
> patient 
> > profile, describing the medial realities in painful 
> > detail, then walked through the process that a patient
> 
> > went through with the staff.
> >
> > In George Tiller's own words: âIt makes absolutely
> no 
> > sense to do all the prenatal testing if you get all
> this 
> > information and canât do anything about it. My
> feeling is 
> > that prenatal testing without prenatal choice is
> medical 
> > fraud.â
> >
> > Desmond Ravenstone
> >
> > "Do not do unto others as you expect they should do
> unto 
> > you. Their tastes may not be the same." -- George
> Bernard 
> > Shaw
> >
> > http://ravenstonesreflections.blogspot.com
> > http://www.myspace.com/desmond_ravenstone
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 6/1/09, James F <hazelstars@msn.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: James F <hazelstars@msn.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57,
> Issue 1
> >> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> >> Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 8:15 PM
> >>
> >> I am partially still of older ethics concerning
> abortion. 
> >> I
> >> love babies and want to make more of them when I
> find the
> >> right fertile woman for myself.
> >> To me this doctor was a joke of a christian,
> killing 
> >> babies
> >> [while being an usher at church on Sundays] in
> last
> >> trimester term who should have been put up for
> adoption.
> >> They are fully formed, fully human, not a stupid 
> >> valueless
> >> term called fetus. While babies are being killed
> every 10
> >> seconds
> >>
> >> there are tear jerking commericals on TV for
> mistreated 
> >> pet
> >> animals: cats and dogs telling pets are mistreated
> every 
> >> 10
> >> seconds,
> >>
> >> while at the same time, millions of babies are
> >> aborted.....duhhhh WTF!!!???
> >>
> >> Roe vrs Wade, three months later, TADAAA: Fish and
> 
> >> Wildlife
> >> Preservation ACT {including plants}
> >>
> >> Sorry, I think some things have gone off center
> too much
> >> numb non-thinking. The guy who shot the doctor had
> enough
> >> conviction as well as the doctor who thought he
> was doing 
> >> a
> >> great service killing the unborn human. Fetus is a
> catch
> >> phrase to lessen the guilt of what is done. The
> new 
> >> behind
> >> the skin untra sound/vision equipment says it all,
> shows 
> >> it
> >> all.
> >>
> >> Then all these cat/dog tear jerking commercials
> wanting
> >> people to feel sorry for the animals, true that is
> a 
> >> cruel
> >> thing to do to animals, how much more
> >>
> >> to tear apart a baby as if it were dung being
> disected? 
> >> If
> >> any comments come back blasting me well ya'll know
> what 
> >> you
> >> can do. SEX is one thing, multi wives/husbands is
> another
> >> thing - IT was not wrong in the Old Testament, was
> not
> >> considered wrong until Mr. ST. Paul gave out macho
> ideas
> >> against woman and anti sex the convenient bad 
> >> translations
> >> used in KJV. Yes I am opinionated too, not a
> follower
> >> of BS following the crowd group think feeling
> sorry for 
> >> this
> >> doctor. If freedom of my speech is not welcom,
> >> owell...
> >>
> >> regards Jim,
> >>
> >>
> >> > From: uupoly-l-request@uupa.org
> >> > Subject: UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
> >> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> >> > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:00:11 -0400
> >> >
> >> > Send UUPoly-L mailing list submissions to
> >> > uupoly-l@uupa.org
> >> >
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> >> >
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> >> >
> >> > When replying, please edit your Subject line
> so it is
> >> more specific
> >> > than "Re: Contents of UUPoly-L digest..."
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Today's Topics:
> >> >
> >> > 1. Dr. George Tiller's Murder (Christine
> Heinsohn)
> >> > 2. Re: Dr. George Tiller's Murder (CWLee)
> >> > 3. Re: Dr. George Tiller's Murder (Maria
> Snyder)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Message: 1
> >> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:51:39 -0500
> >> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
> >> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>,
> >> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
> >> > Message-ID:
> >> <003a01c9e263$ef229330$cd67b990$@net>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >> >
> >> > I think it's appropriate for the poly
> community to
> >> think about and talk
> >> > about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a good
> physician who
> >> stood for his
> >> > principles and would not back down from what
> he
> >> thought was right even
> >> > after being shot in the early 90's and being
> harassed
> >> by Kansas's former
> >> > Attorney General. I hope I can stand as
> steadfastly on
> >> my principles. May
> >> > I stand down the tyranny of hatred dressed in
> the
> >> transparent tattered veils
> >> > of religion wherever I find it.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Christine Heinsohn
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Message: 2
> >> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:13:39 -0700
> >> > From: "CWLee" <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
> >> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> > To: <uupoly-l@uupa.org>,
> >> <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>,
> >> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
> >> > Message-ID:
> >> <BE5F40C567194BBE973DF3864E39E89D@System4>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
> >> charset="iso-8859-1";
> >> > reply-type=original
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > OK, here are my comments:
> >> >
> >> > 1. Murder is a crime. The suspect(s) deserves
> a fair
> >> trial
> >> > and, if found guilty, punishment. I generally
> favor
> >> capital
> >> > punishment for murder.
> >> >
> >> > 2. I know of no connection between this
> murder and
> >> poly
> >> > issues, so I don't understand why the poly
> community
> >> has any
> >> > more concerns or need to speak out about this
> than any
> >> other
> >> > subset of society.
> >> >
> >> > 3. The victim is described as someone "who
> stood for
> >> his
> >> > principles and would not back down from what
> he
> >> thought was
> >> > right". Although I know nothing about the
> suspect(s)
> >> in
> >> > this case, the same statement ("he stood for
> his
> >> principles
> >> > and would not back down from what he thought
> was
> >> right") can
> >> > be made about some previous killers/shooters
> of
> >> abortion
> >> > facilitators.
> >> >
> >> > 4. Sometimes it can be very difficult,
> morally, to
> >> know
> >> > when to accept, for the good of the greater
> society,
> >> laws
> >> > with which we personally disagree - and when
> to stand
> >> by our
> >> > principles and disobey the laws of society.
> That
> >> applies to
> >> > both sides of many recent issues in the USA.
> >> >
> >> > Rational dialog welcome; emotional rants will
> be
> >> ignored.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
> >> >
> >> > ----------
> >> > CWLee
> >> > Former slayer of dragons; practice now
> limited to
> >> sacred
> >> > cows. Believing we should hire for quality,
> not
> >> quotas, and
> >> > promote for performance, not preferences.
> >> >
> >> > ========================
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
> >> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >>
> >> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>;
> >> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >>
> >> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:51 PM
> >> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >I think it's appropriate for the poly
> community to
> >> think
> >> > >about and talk
> >> > > about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a
> good
> >> physician who
> >> > > stood for his
> >> > > principles and would not back down from
> what he
> >> thought
> >> > > was right even
> >> > > after being shot in the early 90's and
> being
> >> harassed by
> >> > > Kansas's former
> >> > > Attorney General. I hope I can stand as
> >> steadfastly on my
> >> > > principles. May
> >> > > I stand down the tyranny of hatred
> dressed in the
> >>
> >> > > transparent tattered veils
> >> > > of religion wherever I find it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Christine Heinsohn
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > Message: 3
> >> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT)
> >> > From: Maria Snyder <miss_faery_maria@yahoo.com>
> >> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
> >> > Message-ID: 
> >> > <182880.55970.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >> >
> >> > While I don't know about all the poly groups
> that were
> >> copied on this, I do think that this is an issue
> that is
> >> near and dear to many UU's, as Dr.Tiller stood up
> for
> >> reproductive rights. As a Kansan, a UU, a Dir. of
> 
> >> Religious
> >> Ed., and a mom?I am interested in?the topic and?I
> think 
> >> that
> >> Christine's thoughts are relevent to?at least the
> UU 
> >> group.
> >>
> >> > ?
> >> > Maria?
> >> >
> >> > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > From: CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
> >> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org,
> >> KanPoly@yahoogroups.com,
> >> OKPoly@yahoogroups.com,
> >> mwpoly@yahoogroups.com,
> >> harp@yahoogroups.com,
> >> wnypoly@yahoogroups.com
> >> > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 11:13 PM
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > OK, here are my comments:
> >> >
> >> > 1.? Murder is a crime.? The suspect(s)
> deserves a fair
> >> trial
> >> > and, if found guilty, punishment.? I
> generally favor
> >> capital
> >> > punishment for murder.
> >> >
> >> > 2.? I know of no connection between this
> murder and
> >> poly
> >> > issues, so I don't understand why the poly
> community
> >> has any
> >> > more concerns or need to speak out about this
> than any
> >> other
> >> > subset of society.
> >> >
> >> > 3.? The victim is described as someone "who
> stood for
> >> his
> >> > principles and would not back down from what
> he
> >> thought was
> >> > right".? Although I know nothing about the
> suspect(s)
> >> in
> >> > this case, the same statement ("he stood for
> his
> >> principles
> >> > and would not back down from what he thought
> was
> >> right") can
> >> > be made about some previous killers/shooters
> of
> >> abortion
> >> > facilitators.
> >> >
> >> > 4.? Sometimes it can be very difficult,
> morally, to
> >> know
> >> > when to accept, for the good of the greater
> society,
> >> laws
> >> > with which we personally disagree - and when
> to stand
> >> by our
> >> > principles and disobey the laws of society.?
> That
> >> applies to
> >> > both sides of many recent issues in the USA.
> >> >
> >> > Rational dialog welcome; emotional rants will
> be
> >> ignored.
> >> >
> >> > Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
> >> >
> >> > ----------
> >> > CWLee
> >> > Former slayer of dragons; practice now
> limited to
> >> sacred
> >> > cows.? Believing we should hire for quality,
> not
> >> quotas, and
> >> > promote for performance, not preferences.
> >> >
> >> > ========================
> >> >
> >> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> >> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
> >> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >>
> >> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>;
> >> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>;
> >>
> >> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>;
> >> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
> >> > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:51 PM
> >> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
> Murder
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > >I think it's appropriate for the poly
> community to
> >> think
> >> > >about and talk
> >> > > about this murder.? Dr. Tiller was a
> good
> >> physician who
> >> > > stood for his
> >> > > principles and would not back down from
> what? he
> >> thought
> >> > > was right even
> >> > > after being shot in the early 90's and
> being
> >> harassed by
> >> > > Kansas's former
> >> > > Attorney General.? I hope I can stand
> as
> >> steadfastly on my
> >> > > principles.? May
> >> > > I stand down the tyranny of hatred
> dressed in the
> >>
> >> > > transparent tattered veils
> >> > > of religion wherever I find it.
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Christine Heinsohn
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________
> >> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public
> archives.
> >> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how
> much to
> >> reveal about yourself.
> >> > UUPoly-L mailing list
> >> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> >> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------
> >> >
> >> >
> _______________________________________________
> >> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public
> archives.
> >> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how
> much to
> >> reveal about yourself.
> >> > UUPoly-L mailing list
> >> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> >> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > End of UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
> >> > ***************************************
> >>
> >>
> _________________________________________________________________
> >> Insert movie times and more without leaving
> HotmailÂ.
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> >> _______________________________________________
> >> The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> >> Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to
> reveal
> >> about yourself.
> >> UUPoly-L mailing list
> >> UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> >> http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to
> reveal 
> > about yourself.
> > UUPoly-L mailing list
> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> > 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> The UUPoly-L mailing list has public archives.
> Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to reveal
> about yourself.
> UUPoly-L mailing list
> UUPoly-L@uupa.org
> http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
> 