Re: [UUPoly-L] Defending George Tiller


"Desmond Ravenstone" <desmondravenstone@yahoo.com> wrote:

Let's say that he did what these press reports say. Do you know the full circumstances behind it? Why the woman was considering it? The process of decision-making?

Certainly not. I doubt if anyone, even the women seeking the abortions and certainly not the physician, knew "the full circumstances ... why ... (and the) process" involved in the decision making that lead to those events. I believe the same can be said about the various individuals who have killed, or tried to kill, abortion facilitators over the years.

For clarity of understanding, I find it useful, often, to separate an action and its consequences from the motives and intentions that appear to have brought about the action. In our legal system one of the roles of the police, district attorneys, and the judicial branch is to consider those independently, as part of the process of separating accidents from crimes, and in determining appropriate punishment for those found guilty of crimes.

Even in the arena of moral conflict, I find "good intentions" as a less than satisfactory excuse for bad outcomes. Reasonable people will differ, of course, but I hope the same calculus is used to judge those who break the laws you agree with and those who break the laws you believe are unjust - when the tresspassers in each case are doing it out of a belief of moral correctness.

Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.

=======================================

If Dr. Tiller is to be remembered and respected for anything, it is recognizing the power and right of women to make such difficult decisions for themselves. 

Desmond Ravenstone

"Do not do unto others as you expect they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same." -- George Bernard Shaw

http://ravenstonesreflections.blogspot.com
http://www.myspace.com/desmond_ravenstone


--- On Mon, 6/1/09, CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu> wrote:

From: CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Defending George Tiller
To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 9:31 PM

"Desmond Ravenstone" <desmondravenstone@yahoo.com>
wrote:

> Dr. Tiller did not perform late-term abortions
lightly.
> Time after time, he saw women with crisis pregnancies

> involving severe fetal anomalies, including
anencephaly
> (where the fetus does not develop most of the brain,
skull
> and scalp).

The phrase "Time after time" could be interpreted to mean
exclusively; however, there are other news reports that say

while he did do abortions on such severe cases, he "also
aborted healthy late-term fetuses". Those abortions
present
me with a more difficult moral problem.

Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.

=====================================

>
> Twelve years ago, he and his staff invited
legislators,
> clergy and media to attend a "clinic experience"
--
> including some who had been arrested in protests
> blockading the clinic. Each guest was given a
patient
> profile, describing the medial realities in painful
> detail, then walked through the process that a patient

> went through with the staff.
>
> In George Tiller's own words: âIt makes absolutely
no
> sense to do all the prenatal testing if you get all
this
> information and canât do anything about it. My
feeling is
> that prenatal testing without prenatal choice is
medical
> fraud.â
>
> Desmond Ravenstone
>
> "Do not do unto others as you expect they should do
unto
> you. Their tastes may not be the same." -- George
Bernard
> Shaw
>
> http://ravenstonesreflections.blogspot.com
> http://www.myspace.com/desmond_ravenstone
>
>
> --- On Mon, 6/1/09, James F <hazelstars@msn.com>
wrote:
>
>> From: James F <hazelstars@msn.com>
>> Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57,
Issue 1
>> To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
>> Date: Monday, June 1, 2009, 8:15 PM
>>
>> I am partially still of older ethics concerning
abortion.
>> I
>> love babies and want to make more of them when I
find the
>> right fertile woman for myself.
>> To me this doctor was a joke of a christian,
killing
>> babies
>> [while being an usher at church on Sundays] in
last
>> trimester term who should have been put up for
adoption.
>> They are fully formed, fully human, not a stupid
>> valueless
>> term called fetus. While babies are being killed
every 10
>> seconds
>>
>> there are tear jerking commericals on TV for
mistreated
>> pet
>> animals: cats and dogs telling pets are mistreated
every
>> 10
>> seconds,
>>
>> while at the same time, millions of babies are
>> aborted.....duhhhh WTF!!!???
>>
>> Roe vrs Wade, three months later, TADAAA: Fish and

>> Wildlife
>> Preservation ACT {including plants}
>>
>> Sorry, I think some things have gone off center
too much
>> numb non-thinking. The guy who shot the doctor had
enough
>> conviction as well as the doctor who thought he
was doing
>> a
>> great service killing the unborn human. Fetus is a
catch
>> phrase to lessen the guilt of what is done. The
new
>> behind
>> the skin untra sound/vision equipment says it all,
shows
>> it
>> all.
>>
>> Then all these cat/dog tear jerking commercials
wanting
>> people to feel sorry for the animals, true that is
a
>> cruel
>> thing to do to animals, how much more
>>
>> to tear apart a baby as if it were dung being
disected?
>> If
>> any comments come back blasting me well ya'll know
what
>> you
>> can do. SEX is one thing, multi wives/husbands is
another
>> thing - IT was not wrong in the Old Testament, was
not
>> considered wrong until Mr. ST. Paul gave out macho
ideas
>> against woman and anti sex the convenient bad
>> translations
>> used in KJV. Yes I am opinionated too, not a
follower
>> of BS following the crowd group think feeling
sorry for
>> this
>> doctor. If freedom of my speech is not welcom,
>> owell...
>>
>> regards Jim,
>>
>>
>> > From: uupoly-l-request@uupa.org
>> > Subject: UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
>> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
>> > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:00:11 -0400
>> >
>> > Send UUPoly-L mailing list submissions to
>> > uupoly-l@uupa.org
>> >
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>> >
>> > When replying, please edit your Subject line
so it is
>> more specific
>> > than "Re: Contents of UUPoly-L digest..."
>> >
>> >
>> > Today's Topics:
>> >
>> > 1. Dr. George Tiller's Murder (Christine
Heinsohn)
>> > 2. Re: Dr. George Tiller's Murder (CWLee)
>> > 3. Re: Dr. George Tiller's Murder (Maria
Snyder)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 1
>> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:51:39 -0500
>> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
>> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>,
>> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>,
>> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Message-ID:
>> <003a01c9e263$ef229330$cd67b990$@net>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>> >
>> > I think it's appropriate for the poly
community to
>> think about and talk
>> > about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a good
physician who
>> stood for his
>> > principles and would not back down from what
he
>> thought was right even
>> > after being shot in the early 90's and being
harassed
>> by Kansas's former
>> > Attorney General. I hope I can stand as
steadfastly on
>> my principles. May
>> > I stand down the tyranny of hatred dressed in
the
>> transparent tattered veils
>> > of religion wherever I find it.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Christine Heinsohn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 2
>> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:13:39 -0700
>> > From: "CWLee" <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
>> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> > To: <uupoly-l@uupa.org>,
>> <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> > <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>,
>> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>,
>> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Message-ID:
>> <BE5F40C567194BBE973DF3864E39E89D@System4>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed;
>> charset="iso-8859-1";
>> > reply-type=original
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, here are my comments:
>> >
>> > 1. Murder is a crime. The suspect(s) deserves
a fair
>> trial
>> > and, if found guilty, punishment. I generally
favor
>> capital
>> > punishment for murder.
>> >
>> > 2. I know of no connection between this
murder and
>> poly
>> > issues, so I don't understand why the poly
community
>> has any
>> > more concerns or need to speak out about this
than any
>> other
>> > subset of society.
>> >
>> > 3. The victim is described as someone "who
stood for
>> his
>> > principles and would not back down from what
he
>> thought was
>> > right". Although I know nothing about the
suspect(s)
>> in
>> > this case, the same statement ("he stood for
his
>> principles
>> > and would not back down from what he thought
was
>> right") can
>> > be made about some previous killers/shooters
of
>> abortion
>> > facilitators.
>> >
>> > 4. Sometimes it can be very difficult,
morally, to
>> know
>> > when to accept, for the good of the greater
society,
>> laws
>> > with which we personally disagree - and when
to stand
>> by our
>> > principles and disobey the laws of society.
That
>> applies to
>> > both sides of many recent issues in the USA.
>> >
>> > Rational dialog welcome; emotional rants will
be
>> ignored.
>> >
>> > Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
>> >
>> > ----------
>> > CWLee
>> > Former slayer of dragons; practice now
limited to
>> sacred
>> > cows. Believing we should hire for quality,
not
>> quotas, and
>> > promote for performance, not preferences.
>> >
>> > ========================
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
>> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>>
>> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>;
>> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>>
>> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>;
>> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:51 PM
>> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> >
>> >
>> > >I think it's appropriate for the poly
community to
>> think
>> > >about and talk
>> > > about this murder. Dr. Tiller was a
good
>> physician who
>> > > stood for his
>> > > principles and would not back down from
what he
>> thought
>> > > was right even
>> > > after being shot in the early 90's and
being
>> harassed by
>> > > Kansas's former
>> > > Attorney General. I hope I can stand as
>> steadfastly on my
>> > > principles. May
>> > > I stand down the tyranny of hatred
dressed in the
>>
>> > > transparent tattered veils
>> > > of religion wherever I find it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Christine Heinsohn
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 3
>> > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 22:37:50 -0700 (PDT)
>> > From: Maria Snyder <miss_faery_maria@yahoo.com>
>> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org
>> > Message-ID:
>> > <182880.55970.qm@web53508.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> >
>> > While I don't know about all the poly groups
that were
>> copied on this, I do think that this is an issue
that is
>> near and dear to many UU's, as Dr.Tiller stood up
for
>> reproductive rights. As a Kansan, a UU, a Dir. of

>> Religious
>> Ed., and a mom?I am interested in?the topic and?I
think
>> that
>> Christine's thoughts are relevent to?at least the
UU
>> group.
>>
>> > ?
>> > Maria?
>> >
>> > --- On Sun, 5/31/09, CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: CWLee <cwlee@post.harvard.edu>
>> > Subject: Re: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> > To: uupoly-l@uupa.org,
>> KanPoly@yahoogroups.com,
>> OKPoly@yahoogroups.com,
>> mwpoly@yahoogroups.com,
>> harp@yahoogroups.com,
>> wnypoly@yahoogroups.com
>> > Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 11:13 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > OK, here are my comments:
>> >
>> > 1.? Murder is a crime.? The suspect(s)
deserves a fair
>> trial
>> > and, if found guilty, punishment.? I
generally favor
>> capital
>> > punishment for murder.
>> >
>> > 2.? I know of no connection between this
murder and
>> poly
>> > issues, so I don't understand why the poly
community
>> has any
>> > more concerns or need to speak out about this
than any
>> other
>> > subset of society.
>> >
>> > 3.? The victim is described as someone "who
stood for
>> his
>> > principles and would not back down from what
he
>> thought was
>> > right".? Although I know nothing about the
suspect(s)
>> in
>> > this case, the same statement ("he stood for
his
>> principles
>> > and would not back down from what he thought
was
>> right") can
>> > be made about some previous killers/shooters
of
>> abortion
>> > facilitators.
>> >
>> > 4.? Sometimes it can be very difficult,
morally, to
>> know
>> > when to accept, for the good of the greater
society,
>> laws
>> > with which we personally disagree - and when
to stand
>> by our
>> > principles and disobey the laws of society.?
That
>> applies to
>> > both sides of many recent issues in the USA.
>> >
>> > Rational dialog welcome; emotional rants will
be
>> ignored.
>> >
>> > Best regards to all, Chuck Lee.
>> >
>> > ----------
>> > CWLee
>> > Former slayer of dragons; practice now
limited to
>> sacred
>> > cows.? Believing we should hire for quality,
not
>> quotas, and
>> > promote for performance, not preferences.
>> >
>> > ========================
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Christine Heinsohn" <kb4wyr@fhrd.net>
>> > To: <KanPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>> <OKPoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>>
>> > <uupoly-l@uupa.org>;
>> <mwpoly@yahoogroups.com>;
>>
>> > <harp@yahoogroups.com>;
>> <wnypoly@yahoogroups.com>
>> > Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 7:51 PM
>> > Subject: [UUPoly-L] Dr. George Tiller's
Murder
>> >
>> >
>> > >I think it's appropriate for the poly
community to
>> think
>> > >about and talk
>> > > about this murder.? Dr. Tiller was a
good
>> physician who
>> > > stood for his
>> > > principles and would not back down from
what? he
>> thought
>> > > was right even
>> > > after being shot in the early 90's and
being
>> harassed by
>> > > Kansas's former
>> > > Attorney General.? I hope I can stand
as
>> steadfastly on my
>> > > principles.? May
>> > > I stand down the tyranny of hatred
dressed in the
>>
>> > > transparent tattered veils
>> > > of religion wherever I find it.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Christine Heinsohn
>> >
>> >
_______________________________________________
>> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public
archives.
>> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how
much to
>> reveal about yourself.
>> > UUPoly-L mailing list
>> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
>> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> >
_______________________________________________
>> > The UUPoly-L mailing list has public
archives.
>> > Please keep that in mind when deciding how
much to
>> reveal about yourself.
>> > UUPoly-L mailing list
>> > UUPoly-L@uupa.org
>> > http://www.uupa.org/mailman/listinfo/uupoly-l
>> >
>> >
>> > End of UUPoly-L Digest, Vol 57, Issue 1
>> > ***************************************
>>
>>
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Please keep that in mind when deciding how much to reveal about yourself.
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